Bimdurian
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Posts posted by Bimdurian
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You have point that the formulas are unnecessary but I just wanted.to point out that the first one wast the wrong one to use.
However you are wrong in you assumption that: "Avorion, this is untrue; if mass is doubled and applied force is doubled (thrusters), acceleration should be the same and the game models this correctly"
Firstly we have the friction in space as we spoke of earlier.
Secondly, and even worse we have gravity: When you are saying that "if mass is doubled and applied force is doubled acceleration should be the same" you are referring to Newton in his First Law of Motion. Problem with that is it states: " ..an object not subject to any net external force..". If a object are under the force of gravity then you cant use the First Law of Motion. In Avorion you are mostly inside solar system where you are constantly under the effect of both the suns and planets gravitational force. If you then are using a ship that have more mass then some of the moons in our system you are bound to have some extra gravitational affecting you ship.
However while in between systems the gravitational should be more or less null.
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So this is actually a very basic physics equation: F= M x a (force = mass x acceleration). This is a linear equation.
The number reported in game under "thrust" is actually your ships acceleration. Now solving for acceleration, the equation becomes a = F / M. If you double the force and keep the mass constant, the acceleration will double. If you double the mass and keep force constant, the acceleration will be half. If you double both the force and the mass, the acceleration will remain the same.
This is a linear relationship.
Well that was not what I meant really but while where at it:
I see you are using Newton's second law of motion but morally in this caves you would use Einstein special relativity to calculate mass increase in this cases.
m=m0/sqrt(1-v*v/c*c)
m0 = Rest Mass
v = Velocity
c = speed of light (under normal circumstances are constant at 299792458 m/s but there are exceptions)
But yes his equation still show linear mass increase winch was not my point.
P.S. there is no friction (I.e. Air drag) in space
Just because there is no air doesn't mean there is no FRICTION with other partials. In space there is about one particle per cm3 cording to Dr. Louis Barbier at NASA. The density do not effect the craft we are bounding in real life so far, however the sizes we are sizes in Avorion? If you have a ship (Borg cube) with a side that is 9 241 600 m2 sided cube (3040m * 3040m * 3040m cube) those particles would make a difference. And yes there is with even bigger cubes then that out there with maxed out rads.
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That certainly doesn't make sense, so I may be misreading your statement. But if you double your mass (not the size, volume, deliciousness, or any other such thing. Mass) then you should need to double your thrust (engines, as well as directional thrusters/gyroscopes/etc) to retain the same movement profile. Twice the mass means twice the energy to move it at the same speed. If we had to account for other variables such as drag, fuel, or whatnot, then your point would make sense.
I did a verification as follows:
Size Mass Thrust Max V. 2³ 0.48 504.2 259 4³ 3.81 504.2 526 8³ 30.46 504.2 831 Who did you verify that? In game? Because in game data are not realistic.
Just as you would increase the acceleration on and item with fixed mass the energy increase is not linear
Same thing happens when you increase the mass but want to keep the acceleration. the more you increase the mass the increase of energy input increases more then a normal linear scale. I do not remember the exact formula for space, was a few years ago worked with those things.
Not to be picky but size do actually matter even in space more then you think because you do have dust clouds and will provide with friction. Not that huge deal for the travel we are thinking about in real life but for the 3*3*3k meters in game should notice those clouds.
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square-cube rule.
every time you double the size of a ship you tripple the mass.
to keep agility, you need to triple thrust each time you double size, which also means more space used for generators and crew.
you will have made compromises in your design to keep that agility.
Just as a quick note: Every time you "double the size" (make it twice as long, tall, and thick), you actually octuple (by eight) your mass, not by three/tripling.
That's because you are "doubling" the ship in each direction (all three of them), and each time it doubles the mass of the ship. So three doubling-s equals an octupling.
And just to be sure that Avorion followed the proper laws of physics, I popped in and made sure that doubling a ship (in this case a simple starting block) would octuple, and it does (see below for my notes):
Size Mass Delta 2³ 0.41 N/a 4³ 3.26 7.95121_ 8³ 26.11 8.00920... Both delta values (mass divided by previous mass) are within the assumed rounding-error range of eight that I'd say it is safe to safe Avorion follows the square-cube law.
What?
When you have a cube and want to bobble it size you simply remove it's armour on 3 of it's 6 sides, copy the existing cube and paste it in 7 times to form a new cube. To exactly calculate the loss of mass due to removal of armour is impossible but you still have to do it to be accurate because it's a lot. Secondly it's an simple 700% increase of volume, with some of it's mass still intact. But removing those 3 sides of armour before copy and pasting it in to a new cube removes a huge amount of armour you don't need in the middle of a cube.
Also worth noticing that overtime you double your mass you need to more then double your thrust to get the same result, in real lift that is. So if the game where to use more realistic approach here this huge cubes would not be a rpoblem in the first place.
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As for an object being hindered by it's own gravitational well, Have you ever been held in place by your own gravity? All mass including your own body has gravity, and so does earth. The earth's gravity is far stronger than ours so why is it then that we can move, or let's reverse the scenario since it would fit the sun sized ship better. We have a sun sized ship with a gravity well and some other objects that have been attracted by that well, the ship then decides to move, will the ship be held in place by the objects in it's own gravity? I hope by now your seeing how silly this idea is.
Yes we can easily move a small mass alongside the earth because we are not changing the state of the gravity it self. As soon we are trying to lift something out of earth gravity, even quite small mass we must waist quite large amount of energy to do so. To move an object that generates gravity, not only to overcome it's own state but also what it affects ion it's surrounding, like planets. We are after all talking about some ships large as small moons made with materials much more dense then a moon so therefore mood mas and gravity.
Also important to remoter that gravity increases with speed so some of this creations passing by earth in high speed would make huge tide waves on earth :D. Luckily enough that don't happen in real life.
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Take away the Earth physics, and you get something quite different than most people would expect. The truth of the matter is that if you put enough maneuvering thrusters on a Ship the Size of the Sun and have the power supply and all the requirements to make it functional it can be made to maneuver like a ship the size of a human.
You do know that mass matters even in space when you accelerate, decelerate and manoeuvring right? However the size have no effect what so ever. So you analogue are flawed, adding more and more mass would come to a tipping point where the mass of the thruster it self would add more mass then it would manage to over come. Specially if you are talking about sun size object that probably have their own gravity to overcome (Depending on it's mass).
One huge flaw I see is the placement of manoeuvring thrusters, not only can you make an unbalanced ship (not that important) but you can hide them behind armour. If the thrusters where to be placed only on the outside of the ship they would be prime target and this would be much more hurting for larger ships.
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I am sorry that I got that wrong.
Can't tell you more than that it's only on Steam right now :)
If would be quite use full information, there is a lot of players out there that doesn't like Steam. This is specially true for this genre of game if you look at statistics.
But the real question is where can one find answers?
Big vs Small ship balance
in Gameplay Discussion
Posted
Thing is that I never said that the increased mass due to speed was an factor.
I only said was: Increase the acceleration on an item with fixed mass the energy increase is not linear.And I stand by that!
That have nothing to do with speed increasing the mass and I never said so, think some kind of miscommunication must have happened because all of a sudden a equation with Newton's second law of motion was on the board. I just pointed to Einstein relativity equation instead since that will give you better resits in cases like this. Anyhow...
If you really read what Dr. Louis Barbier says is 1 particle/cm3 not atom that is a huge difference from 1 atom.
So a 3040m * 3040m *3040m cube at 100m/sek (REALLY slow speed but lets start some where.) would push thru 304000 m3 of space very second interacting with 304 000 000 000 particles every second.
And you still have problem with the sun and planets, sometime even the ship it self, gravity pulling that will have a huge effect as long you are withing a solar system.
I'm not saying in any means that a game like Avorion should simulate all this, not sure it can. But I get somewhat annoyed when someone trying to get it out there that it's a perfect simulation.