Ranakastrasz
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Posts posted by Ranakastrasz
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Hmm.
The main issue is that the simulation encourages Cube-shaped ships. Surface area is not important, because no blocks care about being on the surface, not even solar panels or thrusters. Volume cost never changes given blocks, but reducing, not surface area for armor, profile, and increasing interconnectivity to reduce damage taken, all point towards cubes.
In real life, cubes alone aren't common We don't drive around cube-shaped cars. They could be seen as loosely cube shaped, but are streamlined because of air resistance. Blocky shapes reduce your speed and increase cost of operation. They have Wheels on the bottom for movement(Can't put them in the middle or on top).They have Windows and Doors. (Door on top might be good for emergencies on buses, and tanks certainly use them, but generally doors on the sides work best). They are bottom heavy, so they don't flip, so you also end up with a bit of a larger shape on the bottom, along with a lot of the components.
As a result, these pressures tend to make cars that are car shaped. Admittedly, once someone tries to make a real car with dimples like the Mythbusters tried, their appearance might change significantly. After all, that would be performance over appearance, and obviously some people would want that.
Airplanes need wings in specific locations to get lift, and of a certain shape (or set of shapes) for lift. Engines need to be balanced and be spread out to adjust or handle damage. It has ports and windows, and engines and fuel tanks. Ports/doors and windows are surface area based. Fuel tanks are internal, and volume based. Engines are both surface area and volume based, being large but also outside the plane, using up surface area under the wings.
What we need is pressures to encourage non-cube designs. Waste heat is probably the simpliest method, where performance suffers if you don't have enough surface area. (Vents on the surface with lots of volume beneath for larger ships as well) Or just force thrusters and engines to be on the surface, along with some other things. Maybe shield generators? Ha, so if your generator can't see the shield bubble, it won't contribute. Gotta build the shield on the surface, and make sure you don't just have one giant generator, but several, spread around the surface area of your ship.
Overall, I don't really know how effective this is, but I do know that if you get better performance out of a cube, then people are going to build cubes a lot of the time.
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This is why I wanted integrity fields to be local shield generators. Let you cover fragile details, but still let local damage occur. A compromise. Without throwing out all aspects of a physics simulation, Anything but a cube is going to be less effective without some advantage to counter it.
On this subject, my thoughts on surface area based scaling, but requring LOS seems like it might contribute to a solution. Essentially I wanted solar panels and thrusters to have only surfaces with LOS out of the ship to be effective. This was to make stacking less effective, while still using surface area for calculations.
However, making more surface area better might counter this meta. After all, if you need more surface area for faster movement (or manuverability), or can use it for cheap power (as in, more power per mass and price, if not exactly volume) then suddenly, the death-cube would lose out to ships with higher surface area.
Still, that would optimize towards relatively flat planes or circles (flattened cylinders) so I am not sure. Still, if you are already stuck in the middle of two extremes, where something between solid shapes and flat shapes, you might end up with a solid body with your volume-based components and large relatively flat wings or antenna or other details which provide surface-area based effects.
Just make sure that both sides compete with each other, or you will go to far the other way.
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Pretty sure shields ignore collisions, so they will do nothing. Integrity fields on the other hand....
Its there to make sure you don't just have heavy shields and no armor. After all, who knows when a lunatic is going to be going at top speed while eating lunch and crash into you. Gotta at least have some armor...
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Ogonite armor has around twice the weight and durability of the same volume of avorium hull, and avorium can't make armor. As such, it makes *OK* armor, with the main advantage being that it uses a less valuable resource and, I think, less credits. Plus thinner armor means less chance of block loss (since each block is tougher) and a smaller hitbox, for the same mass.
Also, I think some weapons pierce through until they hit armor or exit the other side of the ship, so Ogonite is really useful there.
Titanium and trinium are pretty lightweight, so using them for anything that doesn't need to be that durable makes sense.
Trinium can be used to build any block, but it is still inferior to higher level blocks.
Making materials sidegrade makes sense. Something like this.
4 Tiers, with two materials in each, one is high tech, one is low tech.
Iron is standalone, terrible in most aspects. 51 Weight, 4 durability
Titanium has 25 weight, 8 durability.
Naonite has 35 weight, 8 durability, but also supports more components like shield and so on. Tier 2, but found in different sectors.
Trinium, 21 Weight, 13 durability. Extreme Flexability, lowest weight. Best generalist material.
Xanion. 27 weight, 20 durability. High flexability, but no armor, again.
Ogonite, 45 weight, 40 durability. Heavy, armor is only block type, but best armor in the game, save none.
Avorion, 36 weight, 45 durability, supports all but armor.
could also make materials key in certain blocks. Like computer cores or hyperdrives REQUIRE Xanion, or Trinium (which is generalist and found in small amounts everywhere)
Avorion can retain it's omnifunction, being that it is extremely rare and hard to get (Core containing, presumably, the happy fun stuff like Dwarf Fortress)
Iron is just garbage material, as a starting point. I would prefer it be useful, but not really sure.
Keeping two options per tier, approximately, might make things more interesting, and reducing the gap in performance might help too. Also, making certain materials required for some blocks could have interesting effects.
Just a few thoughts.
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This is several thoughts, so its a bit hard to answer.
Maybe you are a hive-mind made up of each of the aliens flying the ship you built, and you are still doing everything. You just have multiple bodies.
Why do I have to hire Gunners if I am going to have to manually aim anyways.The gunners might be misnamed, and are more along the lines of technicians or something, ensuring the weapons don't fall out of alignment, or overheat or something, and if you have enough of them, optimize the performance on the fly to keep them at 130% effectiveness.
Automatic turrets should not need crew. I imagine using them on small ships or for ships with small crew quarters. Or they should require half the normal amount of Gunners.Automatic turrets should use gunners, normal turrets should not. The automatic turrets have the behavior of automatically aiming like you think gunners should be able to do.
Non automatic turrets should either be aimed manually or should become automatic once all required Gunners are hired.Currently weapons are nonfunctional until you hire the gunners, so changing it to be manual, and then automatic could make more sense. Have spinal weapons be manual anyway, and gunners just speed up reloading or something.
Captains generally give out targets for the Gunners.Yep, but in most space games, automation on weapons are extremely lacking. You usually control all parts of a ship and have to do everything yourself, even when theoretically you have a large crew.
Given this game has crew data which influences stuff like weapons, it might make more sense if gunners worked this way.
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Well. The label is wrong then in the game stats. I didn't have anywhere to work from aside from the information given, which was nonsense.
When you get around to it, change the measurement label from cm^3 to m^3. That will fix it, and give a proper scale.
So, each block is 10 meters cubed? hmm. well, 950 cubic meters is plenty of space for a crew member.
By which I mean that is the given value. doing some quick research, A person needs 100-400 square feet of floorspace to feel comfortable, but houses tend to have up to 1300 sqrt ft per person. Ceilings are around 8 feet tall, but we can skew that to 10 for sanity.
so, 100 to 1300 sqr feet. 1000 to 13000 square feet.
~0.3 meters per foot, so 0.3^3, or 0.0283168, Skew 0.03 for sanity.
30 m^3 to 390 m^3 minimalist of 1/32 to ~1/3rd for excessive.
I am going to assume, then, that we are going to use 400 sqr feet, so 120 m^3. The remaining 830 cubic meters are used for life support equipment.
Or something, no idea. Just how the math and research turned out.
If 10 meters cubed is the value given, then, a few other details.
Any crew quarters with any dimension smaller than 2.m, or 0.2 scaleon one dimension, and 1.5 meter (0.15) on the other should probably be assumed as nonfunctional, since a person couldn't fit/walk in that area.
Could just use a wall thickness of 1 meter (0.1) for the calculation.
As such.
block x, y, z
Useful volume x,y,z, all -(0.1*2) (Two walls)
So, multiply the three after subtracting the offset value, get actual volume. Then scale it. Probably use 300 meters cubed then.
Still can't figure out the Cargo container equation....
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This is why I wanted localized shield mechanic integrity fields. Lets you make details durable, but lets blocks break off later once it all depletes.
When everything was one solid lump of HP, did Holograms also function like that? and now, do they just break and block one shot, or do shots go through them, or what? And what about Scaffolding? How does overkill get mananged...
Thats a bit off topic, I suppose.
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You have some typos in there (in the material names even) but the text itself is really nice. 8)
The material names are so weird that I am not surprised. The data is on the wiki, so can be edited there by anyone. Will fix eventually if someone else doesn't.
I looked up the list on the blocks´ properties. http://wiki.avorion.net/index.php?title=Block
According to the data, basically all "function" blocks have a (significantly) weaker durability, except for (oddly) solar panels. The only stronger ones are "armor" (3.75) and "rich" (1.5).
Questions:
Cargo has a durability of 1? I thought I read somewhere that cargo gets stronger walls the bigger the block is?
Stone has a durability of 1? The text hints that it was stronger.
The description of Ogonite strongly hints that the durability for its armor block was even higher?
Yea, block durability for special components is pathetic. It explains how Kane Hart Got ?Naonite? So easily from those wrecks in one of his videos. I think.
The wall thing for cargo has to do with capacity. If anything it should have diminishing returns on durability based on size. That said, the equation is not simply volume based on each side's durability minus some amount. Hence why I havn't put it into the wiki, unlike crew. (Which I totally expected the same thing from)
I was surprised about stone too. I was the one who added it to the wiki. Already reported as a bug.
At least it still is (Presumabily) immune to Electricity.
Also, Stone armor takes bonus damage from Mining lasers. Kinda amusing, and makes sense. Wonder if rich stone drops the ore too.
Ogonite armor is stronger than avorion hull. Avorium doesn't support armor. So volume wise, Ogonite is better. Mass-wise, they are about equal, assuming I mathed it correctly.
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I would love to, I was just reluctant because It isn't official material. The rest of the stuff I added was the result of around two hours of research (build mode creative, just adding stuff and calculating stats) But this is very much made up flavor stuff, which might not match game lore.
Should I do so?
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Titanium Generators are the main power generators.
If you are limited to iron, use solar panels. Lots of solar panels. As thin as possible, since they scale with surface area.
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Using mass is probably a bad idea. Mass of materials and components vary a lot, and it would be too easy to manpulate.
The Interface can be changed to show volume in both places, and the Building interface can have volume added. No reason to change the mechanics unless it is actually a problem.
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Huh. If the tooltip were correct, that would make computer cores trivial to calulate the effectiveness of. Unfortunately they arn't so it isn't.
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How do they get off the ship when they quit?
What? No Money? Guess I gotta jump out this airlock. That sounds like a great idea.
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Well, just for the sake of confusion, the claim in the module tab that you need 128cm^3 for the second slot turns out to be incorrect, instead only requiring 48k. Given that, I decided to avoid investigating Computer cores for the time being, since they are clearly bugged at this time.
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Text is all mine. Based on stats and what blocks you can build with them.
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Sometimes stats don't update correctly until you leave build mode and go back in. Might be related.
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Why not just make integrity fields have a greater energy demand. That way you would have to think about where you would place them.
Or, once a certain I-field takes an amount of damage, it fails and has to recharge for a duration, then it goes back up. I personally like this idea better.
The second idea is just a recording of the localized shield method.
BTW there is weapons that ignore shields before we all start hyping for nerfs.
So does ramming. Does it ignore integrity fields? Also this is not a nerf, it is a mechanic change. Overall I expect an increase in total hp but a loss of localized hp.
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From Analysis on material efficiency by Selenog
Material Mass HP HP/Mass % increase from previous material
Iron 51 4 0.07843137255 /
Titanium 30 6 0.2 155.00%
Naonite 33 9 0.2727272727 36.36%
Trinium 21 13.5 0.6428571429 135.71%
Xanion 27 20.25 0.75 16.67%
Ogonite 45 30.375 0.675 -10.00%
Avorion 36 45.5625 1.265625 87.50%
Given the *Random* mass and patterened HP increase, perforaence jumps are a bit odd.
Titainium and Trinium both have huge boosts in performance for their weight.
Iron - Steel - Ferrus - Previous Generation Material
Mundane, the kind of material people used back when they lived mostly on planets. Heavy, fragile, and only used by the deperate, the poor, or sold to be made into consumer goods.
Only really used for civilian grade stuff.
-Supports Armor
Titainium - Current Generaton material.
Titanium is considered the first durable material, making for good armor.
This is what practical spacecraft are made of, being lightweight and Strong. It also allows for containing highly energetic reactions, allowing for localized power generation and storage safely, and can even manage an integrity field!
- SUpports Armor, Generators, Energy Containers, and Integrity Field generators.
Naonite - Nanonite - Neo-nite
Naonite is considered the first of the Technological Materials, supporting complicated and delicate equipment.
Naonite is mainly notable for being able to be the most common material able to be manipulated at the molecular level (and staying put) allowing for the fine structures required for several exotic technologies, such as Hyperdrives and shield generators. Nanoite is incapable of being processed into the dense armour plating due to the properties of it's microstructures not allowing for increased durability with density.
- Supports Generators, Energy Containers, Integrity Field generators., Shields, and Hyperdrives.
Trinium - Tritainium - Next Generation Material
Trinium is considered the first, and only, Omnipurpose material, able to be used in any type of construction without issue.
Trinium is like titanium but far better. Trinium is almost a third less dense and several times stronger.
Trinium can be used in extremely powerful computers, able to remotely control fighter craft and run dedicated computer cores to optimise a ship's performance. It is extremely malleable, and can be used for any component, from delicate electronics to heavy armor plating. This versatility is unique, and not even Avorion can match it.
- Supports Armor, Generators, Energy Containers, Integrity Field generators., Shields, Hyperdrives, Hangers, and Computer Cores.
Xanion - Xanium
Xanion is considered the second of the Technological Materials. Nothing but armor is beyond it's capabilities.
Xanion shares many properties with Naonite, being maluable at tiny scales, and inability to be made into proper armor. It's properties do support advanced computing, like Trinium however.
- Supports Generators, Energy Containers, Integrity Field generators., Shields, Hyperdrives, Hangers, and Computer Cores.
Ogonite
Ogonite is considered the second of the durable material, making for the most durable armor in the galaxy.
While durable, Ogonite is extremely dense, and tends to be more trouble than it is worth for most ships. It also cannot be manipulated at the molecular level easily, disallowing shield generators and several other delicate equipment. It's durability still supports power generation and containment, and is surprisingly able to manage fighter control.
That said, the lack of flexability doesn't change the reason people care about it. Armor made from Ogonite is the most resilient known, surpassing the most durable confiruation of even Avorion, Volume for volume. Proper armor plating is over twice as durable at slightly more than twice the mass.
- Supports Armor, Generators, Energy Containers, and Hangers.
Avorion - Avorium - Unobtainum - Legendary.
Avorion is considered the Pinicle of Materials, providing massive performance increases and durability for anything built out of it, aside from heavy armor.
Avorion is the most prized minerals known, only showing up near the center of the galaxy.
Being exceptionally durable,it is used in the construction of the most powerful ships known, and can be maniplated at the atomic level almost without issue. It refuses to be made into armor plating however, with Ogonite being superior in that aspect.
- Supports Generators, Energy Containers, Integrity Field generators., Shields, Hyperdrives, Hangers, and Computer Cores.
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Starting money and resources at the very least. I think I started with 40k credits and 20k Iron at easiest difficulty.
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Avoiding simularity to shields is the whole reason I wanted them to all have seperate "integrity" hitpoints, for their local area. That would let you reinforce an area, while letting it be worn down and then torn apart given enough firepower, while not effecting the rest of the ship. If it covered the whole ship, it would just be shield 2.0. or shield would be integrity field 2.0
I think there was something about the field giving a percentage damage resistance, like making every block effected take 25% less damage or something.
Honestly, the localized Hp boost is my prefered solution, since it would let you reinforce details and fragile components, while still allowing subsystem damage.
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According to the ship's stats, the scale of a single 1x1x1 block is 1000 cm^3, or 10cm^3
The implication is that each crew member only needs ~950 cm^3 to live in, which I am pretty sure is lower than the volume of a human body.
I think it would make more sense if each block were 10 Meters instead of 10 centemeters.
With this, I can finally calculate computer cores and module upgrades.. Probably
Edit: Apperently the values given to unlock module slots do not match the reality. You get the first upgrade at 48000 cm^3, or 48 units^3, intead of the stated 128000 cm^3 or 128 units^3. Also scaffolding does not appear to contribute anything to this, which is probably good thing.
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Changing the game to windowed from borderless fixes the text issue, albiet at the cost of not alligning with my moniter quite correctly, and offseting some of the button click windows (you have to click a bit below the buttons to register)
If I go to fullscreen, when I launch the cmd console turns on and then closes like 6 times in a second then the game closes.
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Once Adjusted for my monitor and username, that fixed one of the two issies I was having. Text loads correctly now. Unfortunately the models in game still are invisible/spazzing.
Admittedly, my issue isn't the same one, so it isn't suprising that it wasn't a fix.
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I suspected that, but never tested it because thruster stats are also too complex. Doesn't surprise me too much however.
Already suggested a fix, but considering game-breaking bugs still exist, it will probably wait a while.
A quickfix is just to make them use volume temporarily, even if it isn't really accurate, since a real fix requires a lot more work.
The Cube Meta and How You're Helping To Enforce It
in Gameplay Discussion
Posted
I am arguing against cube ships because A, I personally find them ugly and boring, and B, because this thread is about "The Cube Meta". My personal opinion is against cube shapes. I am not a good enough scientist to be able to analyze the situation and determine whether or not I should argue for cube shapes as being the most effective setup (or even if they are currently). As a result, I chose a side based on my personal opinion, came up with some reasons to that supported my position and attacked the other side, and posted it.
While asthetic considerations occur, most cars follow a pretty simple model, which is to a large extent optimized for speed, efficiency, cost, and other factors for it's functionality under the rules of physics.
They vary in some aspects, but follow roughly the same model. Asthetics change, but you don't usually see a large range of extra or missing physical structures. Except for Vans, or trucks, which actually do have different shapes, but still keep streamlineing and effeciency in mind.
If the current laws of physics in the game simulation of Avorium makes it so that cube shaped spaceships are more effective in general given other considerations, then more cube-like spaceships will likely be used. If the decision-maker (Game developer) wants to counter this, and encourage "More creatively shaped" or "Scifi Movie/Book inspired ship shapes" or "Car shaped Ships" or pretty much anything, then a change in the game mechanics to make shapes in that direction to be more effective. If it is fine for the current cube shape (or whatever the optimal shape, both in price, effectiveness, and ease of building is) to be used by most players instead of taking advantage of this being a spaceship building game, then that is fine too. I just prefer the alternative, and if it helps my goals, I will argue for it and try to convince people and the developer to do something about it.
Same. Given that I get annoyed when people use Sentient and Sapient interchangeably, I should probably be more careful to use the right words.
True enough. Flanking, and shields like, say, starsector (which totally wouldn't work here) would certainly have an effect, but as it is, I don't think it has a huge impact.
God, I hate self-analysis.