Hardcore mode? A version with koonschi's desired thruster mechanics etc..

[JayNic]

I love this game. Way too much... And like many people: abused the hell out of the thruster stacking capabilities a couple versions ago... Then... again like many others: got ticked off when my ships all of a sudden didn't work in the new branch. I was dismayed at how slow everything was, how I couldn't fly my massive frigate like a fighter...

 

But then over time, I started to realize how much I actually enjoyed feeling the power behind the vessel. I realized that there had been no space game out there that gave me the true feeling of piloting a capital ship - they're all arcadey! I started to see the merits of it, and while the flying was slow - it was supposed to be slow. If I wanted something nimble, and quick: I would have built something nimble and quick. But I didn't. I was in a 550m destroyer with 16 rail guns.

 

And I liked it!

I like the feeling of this power being held in check by the forces of physics.

I like getting auto-targeting turrets, and taking on multiple enemies at once with more complex combat than simply pointing my nose at them and holding down left mouse...

I like the level of detail that it could bring to the game with a few more ship sizes out there for the AI.

 

The way I see it is that with the originally envisioned model: the complexities of combat and fleet management would promote clever thinking, hiring mercenary escorts, ingenious ship design to cover all angles, multiple "classes" of ships to facilitate different needs.

 

But now... now that the whiners got their way squeaky wheel got the grease: I feel the only way to go in ship design and progression is... bigger... Just build bigger... there's no disadvantage to having one giant ship that can do everything... This leads to an eventual galaxy full of super ships, and that's all... Who can tank the most

 

So here is my hoping - after waiting years for a game like this (since my childhood days of Escape Velocity) that koonschi adds in two simple different game modes: arcade and hardcore.

 

Arcade for the simpler flight mechanics, and hardcore for the true vision that (I think) he wants...

[LordMaddog]

Honestly at this point I wouldn't mind if ships 13-15 slots moved slower and maneuvered slower as well.

 

The problem is, is that size progression is to fast.

 

You typically start out with a ship that is gynormious and requires any where from 12-30 crew. Are space station don't even support that many yet!!

 

And you rapidly climb from there with in 30 to 40 minutes you have a ship with a crew of 70-100. On this level you are essentially already a small capital ship.

 

You never have the filling of being a fighter and you never really fell the sense of becoming a big ship, your just thrown into it. So when your vessel starts not being controllable you never understand why. This is what happened and why every one was upset.

 

As you have pointed out and I believe most are starting to want now is the great joy and slowness of a full on Masive ship and things will need to be changed again.

There are a few thing that need to happen tho before this fix can happen.

 

1 THE ABSOLUTE MOST IMPORTANT A single capital weapon needs to deal A massive amount damage compared to smaller Vessels and the weapon needs to feel like a massive weapon as well. other wise it will always be better to have a 10-11 slot ship with all the weapons pointed in one direction.

 

2 Players need to start out as a fighter on the scale of 0.01 and Npc should as well. In truth there should be very few Npc vessels with over 50 crew. Remember how it felt to see Battle ships in freelancer? or the X series? they were behemoths you could actually fly into. We need to have that aw here and slowly work are way up to getting a larger ship so we appreciate the slowness.

 

3 Small, medium, and large ships need to all have there place in end game content. A bomber of 0.05 scale armed with torpedoes should be a deadly threat to battle ships so fighters are needed. A light cruiser should have fast aiming low damage guns that rip fighters apart clearing the way for bombers but is not armed or fast enough to evaded the massive weapons of a capital ship so at the same time it has to stay out of range. So on and so forth something like World of Warships.

 

If this is done we can see this beautiful change with out it being the death nail to this game other wise you will just pee off 90% of the player base.

[JayNic]

Hmm interesting. When I played through, I don't actually feel the need to build massive. In fact: I stayed much smaller than most until I just had tonnes of resources.

 

I agree that NPC ship sizes should be much more varied. As it currently stands: everything is around the same size, and it means everything really just feels the same.

 

As I think through things in my head: I keep coming back to ship classes... It would be an easy way to add a semblance of reasoning in to configuring ships both on the player side, and the NPC side.

 

For example: I really like the idea of running a trade ship, and mastering some cargo routes: but there's really no reason... why wouldn't I just build a giant battle ship with cargo space?

 

Whereas if there were classes, it would add an abstraction layer around the logic of ship design. The class system could be variable in both size, and statistics. So for example, the rules would be based on things like the following:

* XX% of the mass must be cargo space

  (or)

* The ship can have no more than XX% cargo space

  (or)

* The ship must have at least XX% mass as cargo space

 

Using these (and obviously more) rules: you could add on additional gameplay logic. So that if you're an "official cargo vessel" that meets those requirements: you would get gameplay benefits to trade. Maybe more stations trade with you, or you get better prices, or you get more relation bonus'

 

Conversly as a cargo vessel: you could not have as many weapons: so there would be a reason to hire escorts etc... Or if you stayed around a series of sectors for too long running trade routes: pirates would catch wind of it and come after you... or something... just spitballing

 

 

[LordMaddog]

Hmm interesting. When I played through, I don't actually feel the need to build massive. In fact: I stayed much smaller than most until I just had tonnes of resources.

 

I agree that NPC ship sizes should be much more varied. As it currently stands: everything is around the same size, and it means everything really just feels the same.

 

As I think through things in my head: I keep coming back to ship classes... It would be an easy way to add a semblance of reasoning in to configuring ships both on the player side, and the NPC side.

 

For example: I really like the idea of running a trade ship, and mastering some cargo routes: but there's really no reason... why wouldn't I just build a giant battle ship with cargo space?

 

Whereas if there were classes, it would add an abstraction layer around the logic of ship design. The class system could be variable in both size, and statistics. So for example, the rules would be based on things like the following:

* XX% of the mass must be cargo space

  (or)

* The ship can have no more than XX% cargo space

  (or)

* The ship must have at least XX% mass as cargo space

 

Using these (and obviously more) rules: you could add on additional gameplay logic. So that if you're an "official cargo vessel" that meets those requirements: you would get gameplay benefits to trade. Maybe more stations trade with you, or you get better prices, or you get more relation bonus'

 

Conversly as a cargo vessel: you could not have as many weapons: so there would be a reason to hire escorts etc... Or if you stayed around a series of sectors for too long running trade routes: pirates would catch wind of it and come after you... or something... just spitballing

 

NO just NO class limitations would kill the game.

 

Its better to add features that encourage diversity not force it.

[JayNic]

I disagree. Categorical diversity would still permit players to build things outside any of the specifications. Just certain game play elements would not be available to a ship outside any class restriction, and classes could only do what's in their field of responsibility. Which would work for people some of the time. Or many people most of the time. Or some people much of the time... you see where I'm going

 

For example: I don't really see the point in the NPC freighters - why not just destroyers with cargo blocks?

 

The pro of a classless system is that anyone can build anything they want at any time. The con of a class system being that people might feel railroaded.

The con can be negated by permitting classless ship designs, but denying smaller gameplay elements to a ship outside a required class. This not only adds an additional layer of game logic to facilitate more detailed factions, and npc economies: but adds additional player gameplay as well. Win win

 

The con of the classless system is that... well.. everyone does the same thing.

 

My train of thought takes me on this route:

Without defined areas of responsibility: there's no reason to diversify.

Without diversity: there's no reason to specialize.

Without specialization: we're all just grinding to be the biggest and fastest...

 

 

[LordMaddog]

 

My train of thought takes me on this route:

Without defined areas of responsibility: there's no reason to diversify.

Without diversity: there's no reason to specialize.

Without specialization: we're all just grinding to be the biggest and fastest...

 

That's because you don't see the big picture you have to think about every part of the game.

 

IE the limitation of money, Crew, resources, mass to maneuverability, and energy management.

 

Class restrictions is the easy way out and what most developers do, never dealing with the real problems and in the end there game stutters out.

 

Look at the real world their is massive diversity because there naturally has to be to fill all the needed roles.

 

If the core aspects of the game are right diversity naturally happens just like in real life. Falsified restrictions make a player angry and discussed because it dumbs them down and makes them fill stupid when they arn't.

 

That's why thees creative games are so big. Because it lets us be smart! And as smart people do, they want to see a role and fill it in there own way. 

[JayNic]

It's a beautiful dream

[Ohm is Futile]

But now... now that the whiners got their way squeaky wheel got the grease: I feel the only way to go in ship design and progression is... bigger... Just build bigger... there's no disadvantage to having one giant ship that can do everything... This leads to an eventual galaxy full of super ships, and that's all... Who can tank the most

Wut?! It's quite the opposite, you could get crazy mobile ships before, regardless of size. If anything, it's bigger ships that have to choose between mobility and other things now. The new mechanics mean you can't just simply go bigger and never look back anymore, not the other way around.

 

Also, no, no hardcore/arcade mode. This is early access, no developer is going to create a different versions/modes every time a change doesn't please everyone, this is crazy talk and, if anything, this is mod domain.

[LordMaddog]

But now... now that the whiners got their way squeaky wheel got the grease: I feel the only way to go in ship design and progression is... bigger... Just build bigger... there's no disadvantage to having one giant ship that can do everything... This leads to an eventual galaxy full of super ships, and that's all... Who can tank the most

Wut?! It's quite the opposite, you could get crazy mobile ships before, regardless of size. If anything, it's bigger ships that have to choose between mobility and other things now. The new mechanics mean you can't just simply go bigger and never look back anymore, not the other way around.

 

Also, no, no hardcore/arcade mode. This is early access, no developer is going to create a different versions/modes every time a change doesn't please everyone, this is crazy talk and, if anything, this is mod domain.

 

there was a beta patch that dint have dampiners and gyros. It was waaay more mobility constricting. That's what hes talking about

[Ohm is Futile]

there was a beta patch that dint have dampiners and gyros. It was waaay more mobility constricting. That's what hes talking about

I know. I haven't touched dampeners and gyros yet and I've made some decently mobile ships using thrusters and directional thrusters only.  ???

[JayNic]

That's what I mean - gyros, and inertial dampers were never his desire. He reacted to the loudest feedback. Now it's too damned easy to build battle-cruiser sized fighters

[LordMaddog]

That's what I mean - gyros, and inertial dampers were never his desire. He reacted to the loudest feedback. Now it's too damned easy to build battle-cruiser sized fighters

 

True I have a few capital ships with amazing mobility, but as I said you cant fix this with out fixing the three things I pointed out first or you will kill the game.

 

What he did was right for the time being and once things are more flushed out he can lower the power of gyros and dampeners to mass ratio.

 

O better just change Generators so the use of thrusters gyros and dampeners at high mass eat more energy then they are worth without ever touching their stats. This will make things quite balanced if he incorporates my weapon suggestion.

[Ohm is Futile]

That's what I mean - gyros, and inertial dampers were never his desire. He reacted to the loudest feedback. Now it's too damned easy to build battle-cruiser sized fighters

I'll chalk this up to misinterpreting what I said, but what I meant is that gyros and dampeners are not hurting the game, especially not gyros in their current form.

 

It's a lot better than it used to be and it's in a place where it makes sense. Larger ships require a larger percentage of their volume to be dedicated to movement if you want them to go fast.

 

Technically speaking, if you could scale thrusters while retaining efficiency, you could realistically get any size ship to be as fast as a smaller one. That is real world stuff.

 

Right now, this is not the case and it's fine. You use more space for the same speed which means that you will be weaker or have less of other conveniences in exchange for that speed and that is achievable using thrusters and directional thrusters only.

 

So no, gyros and dampeners do not break the game. I'll admit that after toying with dampeners a bit I found that their potential is great, but it comes at a much higher cost than using thrusters and does not have the same versatility since it only helps braking.

[Warrax]

Ok, correct me if i am wrong but ...

 

Aren't massive ships already dissadvantaged?

I mean, massive ships need massive crews, and jumps take longer to cool down from?  Maybe?

 

i too do not relish the idea of "types" and forced categories.

Instead of imposing catteory restrictions, other means , smart-subtle means could be employed by the devs ...

 

Such as:

1.  More nuanced economies of scale - both positive and negative effects

 

2.  Higher penalties for running deficits on crew

 

3.  Enhanced variations in the materials mix, and stats bonuses

3.a. One crazy idea is to make some combinations "potentially" reactive.  Lol, like if you mix Avorion with Ogonite, maybe your ship could spontaneously combust (kk, i know i am going to get rage on that suggestion

 

 

And, i am not saying do ALL of the changes in one big change.

This thread is good too, because everyone has a different perspective.

 

As for me, i like the massive ships, but i think it would be cool if there was a good reason, ie a clear advantage, to using smaller ships.

 

In the meantime, i will just continue having fun, and enjoy reading your game-posts

 

Cheers

[JayNic]

I think maybe the diminishing point of return for gyros, and inertial dampers needs to be greater - that is to say: the diminishing point of return should show up sooner.

 

That would actually mean that super mega ships WOULD be slow, and smaller destroyer type vessels could still be utilized.

 

 

[Ohm is Futile]

I think maybe the diminishing point of return for gyros, and inertial dampers needs to be greater - that is to say: the diminishing point of return should show up sooner.

 

That would actually mean that super mega ships WOULD be slow, and smaller destroyer type vessels could still be utilized.

Have you built a large ship with gyros/dampeners? Have you?