How to fix trading and make the galaxy feels "alive"

[Cyka]

First of all, excellent job with the game, there are already many features available and i think this game has great potential. I also really like how similar to minecraft this is in that you can build your own.

 

However, there are major problems currently with this game, and i hope devs can address them before the final release, one of them being trading.

 

Trading is absolutely broken right now with factories constantly empty, stuck haulers and the galaxy as a whole feels dead, nothing ever happens, and change only occurs through faction wars which results in empty spaces. Nothing feels progressing, and things are stagnating as a whole. Fixing the cargo hauler bug would be an excellent way to make the game feels abit more alive and im sure the devs are already working hard on that one. However, i noticed that several trade items actually dont have a "consumer" - that is something that buys them, examples include jewlery, force generator, liquor etc. In addition to this problem, many end products such as body armor are not use up. Together they make the galaxy trading system actually finite, because eventually the stocks of these end products will be full, and no further trading or produce can occur. Once this happens, the galaxy starts to die.

 

I think the way to fix this problem is to actually make stations that accept these end produces, e.g. military outposts to regularly restock and reset their storage to continue the supply line. In doing so you are making the entire factory and trading system constantly moving, so you will never get a fully stocked situation where player cant sell to make money, nor player buying all the stocks and make billions in minutes. By making the trading system dynamic, you are ensuring that factories are constantly running, and stocks remain a relatively moderate amount. Players can still make millions, but to make billions they will actually have to engage some empire building, and that makes the game far more interesting.

 

Theres another feature i'd like to suggest: how about making these end products such as drills or body armors actually used by something? So consumption and supply is constantly going on to support a lively galaxy.

 

Example: Body armors now make stations that don't have crews to sell restock their population, Body armor together with a bunch of other commodities now allows factions to spawn additional ships, additional cargo haulers and even stations if the desired amount is reached.

 

Jewelers provide to stations such as Casino and make them able to supply money for gambling features that you might be planning. Foods are regular consumed to generate population, which in turn facilitates the generation of ships for AI faction war. Turret factories when having enough material will make advanced weaponry for the ships that spawned from the system.

 

This system would make the faction system even more complex: want a faction to win a war? supply to them exclusively. want a faction to lose a war? raid their cargo will exhaust their supply.

 

Additional suggestions:

 

1. It would also be great if devs can make winning factions actually take over a sector, and with the resources acquired from trading/economy, build more stations. This does not have to happen in real time, could be simulated to reduce the load. But never the less a feature like this would make sure the galaxy feels truly changing.

 

2. Make trading posts always slightly more expensive to buy and less profitable to sell compared to factories in the X surrounding sector, and make them regularly restock randomized items instead of a crude 500k profit limit. They are trade posts after all, they are to make profits the same as you.

 

3. Make factions actually formidable, perhaps a chance to spawn super ships (high hp/shield comparable to bosses) if the faction is fully supplied with commodities. This could create a goal of an end game for players - to conquer the galaxy.

 

TL:DR A dynamic system that makes all the current end products being consumed by AI factions to make a variety of ships, supplies, or even stations. With this dynamic system, people without empires or home-base will make money easily without being over the top, people who build empires will shape the very foundation of the galaxy.

 

[Shrooblord]

I think the way to fix this problem is to actually make stations that accept these end produces, e.g. military outposts to regularly restock and reset their storage to continue the supply line.

Neat idea. How about this: Military Outposts require Body Armour in order to train new recruits, i.e. the Crew you can hire from them. Something like that. Not just pure consuming for the hell of it, but consuming towards some other purpose or mechanic already in the game.

 

By making the trading system dynamic, you are ensuring that factories are constantly running, and stocks remain a relatively moderate amount. Players can still make millions, but to make billions they will actually have to engage some empire building, and that makes the game far more interesting.

Indeed! Even better: resource shortages now suddenly make so much more sense; we need more Body Armour because we're starting a Faction War and we need new, fresh recruits to stock our battlestations. As a result, our Habitats need more Water and Wheat, because we're doing this elite soldier breeding program with the... well... don't worry about the ethics of it all. We need manpower, which means we need produce. Get on it!

 

Theres another feature i'd like to suggest: how about making these end products such as drills or body armors actually used by something? So consumption and supply is constantly going on to support a lively galaxy.

 

Example: Body armors now make stations that don't have crews to sell restock their population, Body armor together with a bunch of other commodities now allows factions to spawn additional ships, additional cargo haulers and even stations if the desired amount is reached.

 

Jewelers provide to stations such as Casino and make them able to supply money for gambling features that you might be planning. Foods are regular consumed to generate population, which in turn facilitates the generation of ships for AI faction war. Turret factories when having enough material will make advanced weaponry for the ships that spawned from the system.

Oh lol. Great minds think alike, I guess.

 

This system would make the faction system even more complex: want a faction to win a war? supply to them exclusively. want a faction to lose a war? raid their cargo will exhaust their supply.

Nice! I like the idea of making trading and raiding have more of a strategic benefit than "I want money and resources", and make player action actually be meaningful. Maybe you didn't consider the consequences of destroying their coreworld's main supply line when you raided those Stations. But now you're sitting there, looking at their faction crumble under the pressure of hostiles. Maybe they even hold a grudge, or they have allies who do.

 

1. It would also be great if devs can make winning factions actually take over a sector, and with the resources acquired from trading/economy, build more stations. This does not have to happen in real time, could be simulated to reduce the load. But never the less a feature like this would make sure the galaxy feels truly changing.

I think I suggested this somewhere else in broader detail. This is absolutely something I would love to see happen. Look at Stellaris. If you see sped up footage of its galaxy evolving over the course of a game, you'll see Empires rise and fall, grow and shrink, unite and be torn to shreds from within. It's beautiful to watch, and it makes the galaxy feel truly alive.

 

2. Make trading posts always slightly more expensive to buy and less profitable to sell compared to factories in the X surrounding sector, and make them regularly restock randomized items instead of a crude 500k profit limit. They are trade posts after all, they are to make profits the same as you.

Yes! And Trading Posts shouldn't necessarily always have the same items. Sure, they're en route between two major supply lines, so they'll have mostly the same commodities, but I can't imagine the player is the only craft in the entire galaxy that brings in exotics from afar to trade away for hard cash. Why not stock up on some of that, some time?

 

3. Make factions actually formidable, perhaps a chance to spawn super ships (high hp/shield comparable to bosses) if the faction is fully supplied with commodities. This could create a goal of an end game for players - to conquer the galaxy.

 

TL:DR A dynamic system that makes all the current end products being consumed by AI factions to make a variety of ships, supplies, or even stations. With this dynamic system, people without empires or home-base will make money easily without being over the top, people who build empires will shape the very foundation of the galaxy.

Yes yes yes!!

 

I would also love to see more formidable Pirates that aren't just "herp dee derp let's raid a heavily defended Sector with three scout ships oops" and would also actually impact the economy of a faction they affect.

 

Additionally, convoys of traders accompanied by guard ships that are just in-transit would be cool. As it stands, they are mostly only Distress Beacon events. When is the last time you've encountered a completely empty Sector not controlled by anyone, which had a Cargo Hauler in it? Never, that's when. Why not? Where is that Cargo Hauler going, you could think. What are they doing here? Are they mid-transit? Are they smugglers? What's going on??

 

Oh yeah, smugglers. They could be cooler too; as it stands, you have the Botan crew and a smuggler's hideout now and then, but there's no dynamics there either. Smugglers selling off stuff illegally usually negatively impacts your economy, but we see none of that. Also no military action to try and raid Pirates or Smugglers themselves; it's always you, the player, who has to do the universe's handiwork.

 

I think I could think of ideas forever, but let's leave it at this for now. ;)

 

P.S.

As an addendum: easily rename Sectors that you control. Come on; it can't be that hard to implement and it would add so much more flavour and player agency to the galaxy, being able to reshape it both in form and name.

 

[Cyka]

bump for justice

[Shrooblord]

Haha I wouldn't worry about posts not getting enough exposure around here. These forums don't move that quickly. I would like to hear other people's feelings on the subject, though?

[Cyka]

Haha I wouldn't worry about posts not getting enough exposure around here. These forums don't move that quickly. I would like to hear other people's feelings on the subject, though?

 

I know but im really really hoping something like this gets implimented, it would help to make the story and content just by itself with a single dynamic economy. Might be alot of work for dev, but it would also ensure the dev dont have to spend even more time on programming other contents, because it literally does it all by itself.

[Sir Charles]

I like your idea, but I wouldn't stop where you did. I would like to have alliances much more integrated into the actual faction system, right now alliances are similar to factions, but they don't get the advantages or disadvantages of being one.

 

Making the ownership of a sector changeable would be great since empty sectors could then be taken over by alliances, converting yellow or even empty sectors to green ones on the radar. This would also allow to get an actual war against another faction, taking over their former sectors and integrating it into your alliances territory.

Factions that hate your alliance should also start sending ther attack fleets like they would do when attacking another faction instead of just spamming bounty hunters on your sectors.

 

A living economy would be great, but the even greater thing linked to it would be the "respawning" of destroyed sectors. Many players like to get their money and ressources from raiding entire sectors leaving nothing than a tag on the galaxy map wich states that there has been something there in the past. Factions should start rebuilding such sectors, the recovering speed should depend on how good the economy of the faction is at the moment, allowing raided sectors to slowly recover (and be raided again  :P). Also if a player really wishes to, he should be allowed to take out a faction completely by destroying everything it has, removing that faction from the map and leaving its territory to be annexed by another faction or the players alliance himself.

 

In my opinion a system like this could make the galaxy truly alive if done well. :)

[Charless]

Here let me add my suggestion to this, combined I fell this would as well as this suggestion " A Breathing Universe: Making the Galaxy of Avorion Alive

 

Avorion has the potential to be an amazing game. Every update seems to add another dimension to the game. The combat update most recently showed us how amazing the game can be. So looking forward to the future, here are some Ideas on how to make the universe seem more alive.

 

Factions: The faction system in the game is already pretty decent. The names are cool, the territory map is cool. The different ship designs is cool. One thing is missing however: Factions seem like massive monolithic never changing groups. Occasionally a massive fleet battle will take place. Two battle groups will clash for control over the sector. There is just one problem: No Matter who wins, the faction territory never changes. And the invasions are just that invasions. They are not part of a larger war for dominance. Here's what I'm proposing: the war update. The war update would add in several key features

War: Factions would either due to hate or player actions go to war from time to time. During a war factions would launch offensives, counter offensives, small shipping raids and excetera. Merchant ships would be attacked. Territories would change hands and near jump gates defensive stations would be set up. Which ever side wins would engulf the other faction either partially or fully, and sectors decimated by war would be rebuilt. During these wars a faction your allied to would give you a privateer license or give you tasked. Privateer license would grant you license to attack enemy civilian targets without a general loss of reputation, you would also be allowed to keep cargo you take. If you are a powerful enough player, you can be tasked to assault a sector. This update would also include several other features:

quantifiable fleets: Currently factions have unlimited numbers of ships. Obviously in a war this would not due. So most factions would have a shipyard sector (one if small, multiple if larger faction). Factions would also have quantifiable credits, so no infinite funds, quantifiable resorces. When becoming allied with a faction you would slowly learn the capabilities of each faction. Ships would be grouped into fleets.  This would make factions seem more real. Over time factions would grow. Either from your aid or without it.

Sector in motion: Sectors devastated by war would now slowly regrow. New stations, mines and gates would be built. Further Selling a mine asteroid to a faction would see a mine slowly be built on it.

 

Another thing needing improvement is Trade and civilian ships. IRL trade ships don’t follow random routes. They follow trade routes. In game this would be the same. The update this would be included would be the Shipping update.

 

Shipping update: This update would see the improvement of trade and generally make the universe feel more alive. Sectors connected by warp gates would connect into larger trade routes. These would see convoys of ships like in the game already move slowly through sectors. Carrying specific cargo and selling. This would make trade seem much more alive and really aid in the galaxy being complete. This would also allow a player to wait for a enemy convoy and ambush it reliably."

http://www.avorion.net/forum/index.php/topic,4487.msg24214.html#msg24214

Then the game would feel truly alive

[Sir Charles]

Hm, mabye Cyka could rename the topic and we make this some kind of collection, I already tried to connect the different suggestions by posting some hyperlinks but one thread would definitely be better. I just didn't want to open another one. :P

 

I really hope our suggestions are noticed and considered to be implemented...  ;D

 

 

 

PS: Talking pf hyperlinks, here is another one:

 

The Q3 Release Date of Avorion

 

 

[Charless]

Hm, mabye Cyka could rename the topic and we make this some kind of collection, I already tried to connect the different suggestions by posting some hyperlinks but one thread would definitely be better. I just didn't want to open another one. :P

 

I really hope our suggestions are noticed and considered to be implemented...  ;D

 

 

 

PS: Talking pf hyperlinks, here is another one:

 

The Q3 Release Date of Avorion

I could make a google doc where we can put together our suggestions and work on them more and add to it. Then we could post it as one...

[Sir Charles]

Hm, mabye Cyka could rename the topic and we make this some kind of collection, I already tried to connect the different suggestions by posting some hyperlinks but one thread would definitely be better. I just didn't want to open another one. :P

 

I really hope our suggestions are noticed and considered to be implemented...  ;D

 

 

 

PS: Talking pf hyperlinks, here is another one:

 

The Q3 Release Date of Avorion

I could make a google doc where we can put together our suggestions and work on them more and add to it. Then we could post it as one...

 

Nice idea, go ahead with that please ;)

[DivineEvil]

Well, as I see it, trading system need to be overhauled from the ground up, removing the substantial chunk of superfluous goods and factories. That would allow for reduced density of stations in general without negatively affecting the system, improving faction specialization, making the trading much less frustrating and confusing and allowing for more general-purpose structures like Defense Stations (provides AI with stronger armed footholds in systems), Storage Facilities (stores player's goods for a fee) and so on.

 

As by my analysis, there's at least 37 goods that are completely redundant, too human-specific, technologically outdated, conflicting generalities etc. and several goods, that may or may not be necessary to exist. Avorion at the moment has the greatest number of goods of any game with trading aspect I've seen so far, and many of these commodities are not even considered for trading to begin with. This can be addressed in a manner, that predefines the end-user nodes, which consume the final product to give the faction some arbitrary,  hidden technological, industrial and humanitarian resource points, which together would maintain or even improve faction's performance in faction wars and system maintenance.

[Sir Charles]

I just wanted to bring this up again, the ideas are nice and might be inspiring...

The Game made a lot of progress since we discussed these points here, but most of it would still make a great addition to the Game!