Why I've quit playing

[Deveyus]

23 hours of play, and I've come to realize that the AI factions have infinite ships, they're effectively invulnerable and the only reason they don't dump 1000 ships into a system isn't strategic, it's an artificial limitation purely in place to keep performance high.  There's no settable, meaningful goals that they aren't inherently able to counter, I'd only win strategic victories through artificial, boring limitation. 

 

The AI have decided they like long, 1-3 block wide and tall ships that are outright unfun to fight because every hit causes these multi-kilometer long straws to spin around wildly from the physics impulse of being shot.  Three separate factions are using this design and it's not fun.

 

Titanium is effectively required and while I've finally got a decent amount of it in systems, the AI somehow are building carriers that spew large numbers of fighters, even though their ships are made from Iron and Titanium.

 

Basically the AI cheats to the point that it destroys any long term goal-setting and makes me have zero desire to play. 

 

Admittedly I'm sad, I bought myself a copy, and a friend, we've played almost exclusively together, and while there are some multiplayer issues, they're honestly not bad at all, even just running a local host. I thought I'd finally found a game in X3's style, but what I found was a functionally broken game with a whole lot of good ideas with incomplete or shoddy implementation.

 

Before I hear "It's early access" I'd like to point out that the Early Access description says

“Avorion is already rather far in development and already has a lot of features, but it's still lacking some content and things to do, such as missions. The full version will have more features, weapons, blocks, side missions, a more fleshed out story, more bosses, more goals you can pursue.”

 

So, mostly story and some more block features, nothing about AI changes, or raw gameplay. So this is the final state of the game in regards to the parts that are so painful, and it makes me sad.

[Infinitynull]

Go into a different direction. Try to make a station or obtain financial success. Don't give up on it. Instead use this forum account that you took the time to register to suggest content. And make your friend get on here and suggest his own ideas. I've spent hours and hours of scanning through Steam to find a good game. I honestly believe you have done the same. Give it a chance. I believe this devloper(Owner) is truly about listening to the community. That is forming quickly. Be part of the development and make the game great.

[Deveyus]

I appreciate the thoughtful response, but the points I make destroy building a station or stations, even if I arm it to the teeth it's doomed to death if the AI can do a single point of damage to it. I can earn wealth but it becomes a pure matter of patrolling, watching my miners rip apart sectors and then moving on. Honestly sometimes the AIs come in and just idle after killing a random loader, and it's easier to just let them be, I don't get anything worthwhile most times for killing the pirates and Xsotan, so I might as well not bother.

[Tiberiumkyle]

While I haven't yet tried diving into building stations, I've found it immensely rewarding to destroy then salvage pirate and Xsotan, effectively unlimited resources, plus the loot they drop. The faction wars are rather annoying, yes, was actually about to see if there is actually a way to wipe out a faction, perhaps attacking their HQ station (yes, those appear to be a thing).

[Tchey]

Basically the AI cheats to the point that it destroys any long term goal-setting

 

I agree with this. I'd love to have some real impact on IA, like instead of spawn, they would actually travel from their homebase and spread if not stopped, with realistic ressources managment.

[rmooney01]

Can't dispute any facts listed on the game mechanics. I have not paid it any attention. On the rest, to each their own.

 

Personally I'm spending too much time mining and exploring to find new stations to notice or care how the enemy is spawned or how they like to craft their ships. Still getting to the point where I can build miners and have fighters etc....

 

On the example of enemy having hangers when their ships are built of iron and titanium.... How do you know this? I'm honestly asking, not being smug. When I destroy and salvage is the only way I could think of to know what they are made up of. If that is the case, don't we have to have a salvage beam that can break down certain types of resources? I've only got a titanium salvager and probably have not gotten to a sector with anything higher than titanium stuff.....

 

Anyway, sorry your not digging the game anymore, keep an eye on it. Maybe some of those things will change.

[Dinosawer]

When I destroy and salvage is the only way I could think of to know what they are made up of.

You can see the materials in the wreckage by selecting it (middle click on it)

[rmooney01]

Ah, thank you. There is so much to process I miss things like that sometimes.

[Deveyus]

Can't dispute any facts listed on the game mechanics. I have not paid it any attention. On the rest, to each their own.

 

Personally I'm spending too much time mining and exploring to find new stations to notice or care how the enemy is spawned or how they like to craft their ships. Still getting to the point where I can build miners and have fighters etc....

 

On the example of enemy having hangers when their ships are built of iron and titanium.... How do you know this? I'm honestly asking, not being smug. When I destroy and salvage is the only way I could think of to know what they are made up of. If that is the case, don't we have to have a salvage beam that can break down certain types of resources? I've only got a titanium salvager and probably have not gotten to a sector with anything higher than titanium stuff.....

 

Anyway, sorry your not digging the game anymore, keep an eye on it. Maybe some of those things will change.

 

As far as knowing they have hangars, it's because they were spewing fighters out en masse.

[koonschi]

It is one of our goals to make factions being able to be wiped out. Destroy all stations of a faction in a sector and the faction will be wiped from that sector. Right now there are still some limitations to that (for example transporters would still spawn), but more on that below.

 

So first off: We have several technical limitations due to the server structure. The galaxy is generated on the fly, meaning sectors that haven't yet been visited by players don't actually exist in the database. This makes it difficult (not impossible!) to predict the actual influence areas of factions. So we have to make estimates, which leads to several inaccuracies.

 

Also, sectors are unloaded from memory once they no longer have to stay in memory. This isn't ideal and we're currently planning a middle ground where sectors with player crafts stay in memory so factories and miners actually do something while you're not around. BTW: This impacts the server performance, and less players will be able to be online on a single server, since more sectors will be kept in memory and more memory is being used.

Sectors being unloaded from memory also means that the server has no access to a sector once it's unloaded, so, again, it has to make assumptions on what is happening in the general area.

 

As you've already stated correctly, we can only spawn enough ships so the performance of the server doesn't drop (which is already hard enough). From a technical view point, a faction may have infinite ships. But we actually don't spawn that many ships. The occasions where we spawn ships are faction war battles and when stations are attacked and they call for help. Factions are by far not unbeatable. They are hard to beat, by design, and they can recover to some point (the station's call for help has a cooldown, for example), but they're far from invincible. The only nitpick there is, is the estimates for their territory, which is the basis on how we spawn things like freighters, battles or head hunters.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but it's a lot more complicated than a strategy game approach where you have fixed units and stations. We have to balance immersion and technical limitations at the same time. Avorion is not an MMO.

 

Considering the AI cheating with their hangars: We want to make hangars available earlier soon. Hangars should be available earlier (thinking Titanium) since fighters already are anyways.

 

I hope that clears some things up.

[Kane Hart]

It's all based on seed not much of a programmer but I would assume that no matter what it's always some what the same layout? So why not use the code to generate each system via the seed and generate a special list file with all the data stored inside of it for the entire galaxy. Keep it lightweight but it would be a good way to create such a system.

 

Just an idea but what do I know I'm just the guy who enjoys playing lol.

[koonschi]

That breaks as soon as we introduce new content.

[Kane Hart]

That breaks as soon as we introduce new content.

 

Yeah true, though if it was me I just keep most basic level just say faction data and nothing else in it and use that at least a template who who owns what in space. With that alone you could have an entire simulated galaxy with a roll of a dice. Just consider all factions equal in strength and you could have just a dice role and see who won that system and such overtime.

 

I'm sure I'm going way to simple but sometimes super simple is the best. I mean even now we have this world that feels so alive and yet it's just a very basic foundation in a sense of scripts that feel like pirates are coming in and attacking and factions vs faction wars happening.

[koonschi]

That's exactly what we're planning on doing, except instead of making a list we'll do a simplified version of the sector generator so we can predict the amount of influence a sector generates. As I said, it's not impossible, but it needs to be implemented.

[Kane Hart]

That's exactly what we're planning on doing, except instead of making a list we'll do a simplified version of the sector generator so we can predict the amount of influence a sector generates. As I said, it's not impossible, but it needs to be implemented.

 

Sweet and yes I know this could take time too. BTW I assume the way you predict the gate colors to other sectors is because the other sectors connected to the gate/wormholes are already loaded to the connected system?

[koonschi]

A little yes and no, factions have a basic territory where all sectors within it will belong to a faction. We can predict where the gate will go to, and thus can predict what faction the gate will belong to.

[Naggerknife]

A little yes and no, factions have a basic territory where all sectors within it will belong to a faction. We can predict where the gate will go to, and thus can predict what faction the gate will belong to.

 

Do you ever sleep? I feel like you are always online!! I have never seen such an active developer. Probabaly not human if I had to take a guess.

[Tchey]

Nice to read your answers everywhere Koonshi, thanks for taking time with the com.

 

Is it not possible to create at least 1, maybe up to 3, sectors around the player, to make better predictions ? The player MUST be in the sector to create the sector ? With all the possible connection it could be about a dozen sectors together, is it too much for the engine ? It could help a lot later when building player's empire to have deeper market roads and all.

[koonschi]

It's possible, but it would eat up performance really quickly. It's also happening already, more or less. Sectors that are connected via gates and wormholes are generated once a player enters a sector, so they're immediately available for jumping (you can actually see their status by clicking on the gate, there's a field called "Ready" or "Not Ready").

 

But, since we can predict which scripts are used to create sectors, we can predict what kind of content the sector will have and how much influence it will have. So no need to generate sectors based on suspicions.

[TurielD]

It is one of our goals to make factions being able to be wiped out. Destroy all stations of a faction in a sector and the faction will be wiped from that sector. Right now there are still some limitations to that (for example transporters would still spawn), but more on that below.

 

So first off: We have several technical limitations due to the server structure. The galaxy is generated on the fly, meaning sectors that haven't yet been visited by players don't actually exist in the database. This makes it difficult (not impossible!) to predict the actual influence areas of factions. So we have to make estimates, which leads to several inaccuracies.

 

Also, sectors are unloaded from memory once they no longer have to stay in memory. This isn't ideal and we're currently planning a middle ground where sectors with player crafts stay in memory so factories and miners actually do something while you're not around. BTW: This impacts the server performance, and less players will be able to be online on a single server, since more sectors will be kept in memory and more memory is being used.

Sectors being unloaded from memory also means that the server has no access to a sector once it's unloaded, so, again, it has to make assumptions on what is happening in the general area.

 

As you've already stated correctly, we can only spawn enough ships so the performance of the server doesn't drop (which is already hard enough). From a technical view point, a faction may have infinite ships. But we actually don't spawn that many ships. The occasions where we spawn ships are faction war battles and when stations are attacked and they call for help. Factions are by far not unbeatable. They are hard to beat, by design, and they can recover to some point (the station's call for help has a cooldown, for example), but they're far from invincible. The only nitpick there is, is the estimates for their territory, which is the basis on how we spawn things like freighters, battles or head hunters.

 

I understand where you're coming from, but it's a lot more complicated than a strategy game approach where you have fixed units and stations. We have to balance immersion and technical limitations at the same time. Avorion is not an MMO.

 

Considering the AI cheating with their hangars: We want to make hangars available earlier soon. Hangars should be available earlier (thinking Titanium) since fighters already are anyways.

 

I hope that clears some things up.

 

Thanks for the insight in to the development thought-process!

 

 

This is off-topic for the thread, but I actually hope you don't make hangars available with titanium. One of the things I've found a little disappointing is that new game mechanics seem to kind of stop at blue material. At that point you have hangars, shields, processor core and hyperspace range... the rest of the materials just seem to be plain upgrades which is mechanically uninteresting. At that point its just kind of a grind for higher-level materials.

 

 

[Deveyus]

There is an option in terms of keeping the universe alive without loading a ton of sectors, and that's simply to load some approximation arrays for each sector that give you an idea of what is in there, and have them take 'faction turns' every so often (how often will depend on what you want them doing and of course would be variable) but should allow you to simulate the most basic things, like an entire universe of factories, for the cost of a sector or two worth of physics simulation.